Rel said:

I do agree with your overview that OSH, the way it has been presented to me and the way I'm passing it along, is very one-shot oriented. But I also agree that one could tone down the wahoo/silly a bit to make it feel more like a "serious" contender for campaign play. Since I'll have the ears of some really cool gamers this weekend (including Nareau who really needs to get in on this whole conversation), I'll talk to them about it and we'll see what we come up with.

I wish Nareau posted on these forums more. :(

I don't even necessarily think that campaigns have to be played seriously - certainly the ones that I've run/played have always had their ridiculous elements (surprise surprise). But yeah, the OSH games I ran at GenCon were pretty deep in the "wanna be crazy? Go with it" attitude of one-shot-land.

What frustrates me a bit is that Old School Hack really started out on the DM's toolbox side of things, a collection of notes on "how to run Red Box Hack in the D&D world" before I realized how limitingly DM-centric that was (and how actually generic and sort of "you could find this stuff anywhere" my notes were) and thus really rolled up my sleeves to fine-tune the game towards the player. Since then I've hit some epiphanies in the game's development, most of which I've mentioned before on here:

• Old School Hack isn't dungeon-centric. It's right there in the title for D&D, but Red Box Hack/Old School Hack exists (and flourishes) in a much more free-form world of ACTION where there's a lot more give and take between players and DM as to where exactly you're adventuring, rather than "the DM's got the room-by-room map and a mess of notes, and you're either adventuring in that specific locale or you're not."
• Old School Hack is more scene-oriented than progression-oriented. If you don't even know what that means then I'll admit I kind of don't either, but my sense of how OSH has best been played is with much more up-and-down pacing than trad D&D, which I've only been pushing further with my setpiece-based encounter design advice. I think a certain degree of zooming-in-and-out is inherent in most systems and I guess I've just embraced it a bit and made it explicit.

Anyway, I don't know why I felt compelled to outline these thoughts, or what they have to do with making the game campaign-oriented. Guess I'm being a bit rambly today.

A couple quick thoughts/questions/rambles:

I like the idea of adding two more hit points as cushioning. For the players, its good cushioning. For DMs, we still don't have to worry too much about advancing the bad guys. The rules as written work just fine. We can always just toss on an extra talent or two for advancement.

I came to this table planning on a campaign not a one shot--even if it's a short four level campaign. I recognized the possible zaniness and I was definitely wackier in my execution than in any of my typical games. Still, I was thinking 'campaign.' Part of the appeal to me is that this system is so loose while still feeling classic. So, you should know that I ran that one shot two weekends ago and despite the completion of my mini story arc, two of the players asked if we could play again this past weekend. If I had had free time, I would've made it happened.

I think you're dead on with your description as it being more scene-oriented. The progression of traveling cross-country to get to the tomb in my one-shot wasn't the focus during that part of play. The focus was how the players interacted with the depressed traveler or the slavers.

Next let's assume that the GM thinks that wahoo is a feature, not a bug. If everybody else agrees about this then you're good to go and OSH is a great system for the group. I still think that it is a reasonable assumption that the over the topness is going to eventually wear thin after multiple sessions of play for some of the group.

One way to deal with this is to break the campaign into smaller chunks in order to give players a break in between. Having an ongoing campaign with the same PC's pursuing a set of goals in a setting with continuity doesn't have to happen with weekly game sessions. I think that, as a general rule, people will be more tolerant of the wahoo if it isn't happening every week. If your group only meets bi-weekly or monthly then this may be no problem at all.

Alternatively the GM can set the campaign up such that it runs say 3 sessions at a time. Then you spend a few sessions doing another RPG or boardgames or whatever else it is that your gaming group wants before returning to the next arc of OSH that runs for another 3 sessions before you take another break.

I'll further note here that Nar's preference was the concept that OSH "tiers" be 3 levels rather than 4. He liked the idea of the game running from levels 1-9 with 3 tiers of 3 levels each. He proposed the idea of doing something like the previous paragraph and running 3 sets of 3 sessions with the assumption that the PC's level once per session.

Anyway, the bottom line is that I think that a group could have a perfectly good time "embracing the wahoo" provided that it's broken into shorter chunks. I think that the wahoo starts to lose its charm if the knob is cranked to 11 every session for a longer ongoing campaign.

One final comment on the Quest idea presented in the first post of the thread:

I'd like to hear more about how you'd implement this but it seems a little rigid and I think that flexibility is one of OSH's greatest strengths. Nar and I kicked the idea around a little (I highly recommend doing your idea kicking in a hot tub - it's Awesome!) and we came up with a concept we both seemed to like:

When coming up with your character's Adventuring Goals, choose one that is short term with the understanding that it is likely to happen during the current session. Choose another that is long term and is likely to be met during the course of that Tier of play. Doing this gives the GM a guide to what the players are interested in happening over the course of the campaign and you can aim for that, as well as the resulting complications that may arise, right from the start. In effect, everybody will accomplish a Quest each Tier but it isn't hard wired as the dividing line between 4th and 5th.

These are great! This is exactly the kind of brainstorming I was hoping to hear, thanks!

Another thouhgt for advanced campaign levels (5-12)
Improved (Talent): By taking the Improved version of a Rested or Arena Talent, you can use it an additional time per time period without expending Awesome Points. Level required 5+, you must already have the Talent at basic level.

Greater (Talent): By taking the Greater version of a Rested or Arena Talent, you can use it a total of three times per time period without expending Awesome Points. Level required 8+, you must already have the Talent at Improved level.

BTW, I think that characters should get 1 extra HP per tier, one at 5th level and one at 8th level

I'm worried about the sheer number of talents slowing down the game. Five or more talents just seems like too much to keep track of--especially those that add small bonuses in specific situations (the fighter's Heft talent, for instance).

I'm curious how much the game slows even by level four, since I have only seen the first two levels of play.

I like, however, that additional hit points are awarded slowly, but wondering if awarding any at all is necessary. After all, there is always the Armor of Scars talent that awards addition hit points, which is likely to be one of the most popular multiclassed talents. In fact it seems like the fighter has the most universal talents of all classes. I guess that makes sense, seeing as the fighter is the most universal of all classes.

As a side note: how survivable are characters supposed to be. In B/X, characters are very vulnerable, but in Old School Hack, characters are much more sturdy. Has a character ever died in a game? Some of my players mentioned that they never really felt that there was a real chance of death.

This post has become very rantish, but I hope it provides some interesting feedback.

And not to flood the thread with talent ideas, I thought of another interesting mechanic which may be appropriate for Heroic/Mythic players.

The idea of a face die is great, The game still has those crit moments which gamers live for, but what about the ultimate crit? A natural 20 on 2D10? I think akin to the passive inherent bonuses the classes have, perhaps if you crit the Face die AND the other attack die, you may choose one of the following effects:

"The Natural Crits"

Fighter:
-Lop off, "The blade is clean and the swing is true, that head didn't stand a chance" You deal +1 Damage (Face+1, Lop+1)
-On Fire " It was the strike that fueled the fires within and awoke the primal urges which made you a fighter in the first place" +1 Attack for the next 2 rounds

Magic User:
-Telepath " Not only do you deal the damage, but you manage to take something more from this foe" Steal a single thought/motivation/emotion from this enemy and gain +2 to awareness for 2 Rounds
-Great Voice " Seeing the fear in their eyes, you magically raise your voice and invoke fear in all of those around you." Roll Charm +2 vs. Commitment of all in the arena you are in. Failing the check lowers AC by 1 point for 2 rounds.

Cleric:
-Mettle "Seeing you take such zeal in your god's work, they grant you a temporary armor of holy light" +2 AC for two rounds
-Purpose "After punishing the foe before you, you look inside and realize your duty is more then death to your enemy, but life to your companions" Recharge the Prayers of the Hurt talent. Or gain access to it once before the battle is over.

Thief:
-Confidence "Maybe you get cocky, or maybe you have finally found the soft spot on these foes" +2 to cunning or Daring for two rounds.
-Theft "The attack left them jarred and bleeding so badly they did not have time to notice you stole the key!" Steal one non-combat item from the creature you crit.

Elf:
-Stuck "The arrow finds it's mark and then prevents the creature from making a hasty escape-foppish capes never betray you until you are posted to the wall!" Pin the enemy you hit and prevent them frmo moving next turn.
-Clarity " The sound of the blade as it cut through the air, the smell of flowers and sound of the trees as you dance between them have reached a harmony and all becomes clear" +1 to Initiative and awareness for 2 rounds

Dwarf:
-Stolid "With a fearsome countenance you blast your enemy aside and sink into the ground ready for more"
Cannot be pushed, or thrown and have a +2 bonus to Commitment for 2 rounds.
-Fury "Like the rhythm of the Hammer striking the Anvil you reel back and give it another go without thinking" Make an additional attack against someone in your arena at -2 right now.

Goblin:
-Bite "Your feral Nature gets the better of you and you take a bite out of your foe, and my was it delicious!" Gain 1 HP.
-Scurry "Seeing this as your opportunity, you beat feet and get the hell out of dodge!" Make a free move action to an adjacent arena

I thought these kinds of things add a lot of interesting flavor for those moments when you land the big attack!

I'm with Tom -- extensive Talent lists are going to dilute the feel, I think. It'd be coolest if Heroic game actually changed the rules somewhat in order to create a different sort of feel.

One of the weird things about D&D is that character power doesn't really increase -- just the numbers on all the sheets get larger. But because opponent power scales along with PC power, you end up with always the same chances on the table.

But it would be really interesting if the Heroic game actually played differently than the standard game.

I don't have any ideas to make that happen, but, cool.

I don't want to rule out new talents. It should be possible to pick up new talents for levels 5-8 and beyond because playing with new abilities is fun. And there is bound to be some cool tier-appropriate effects that don't appear in the basic game. That being said, I don't want to track more than 4 talents or so on my character sheet. I think retraining needs to be an option, taking talents to replace or supersede old ones. And it's not like the old talents are really *gone*, since they can still be accessed with Awesome Points.

I also agree with Barsoomcore that the nature of the Heoric game as to change. Less "bonus inflation" and more ramping up the scale of what can be done.

In the Basic game, you might assume one-on-one engagements are the norm for single characters (other than the occasional minions and Big Bads). At the heroic level, I'm thinking that fighting small groups of foes should be the norm. So if a Heroic character went back and faced Basic-level guards, he should be mopping them up like minions.

And that's just for combat. Non-combat stuff should ramp up as well. I'm thinking things like flight, real invisibility, and mind-control (though some of those might be reserved for even higher tiers).

Rules for cool mounts and companions could be introduced.

And at the end of Heroic tier, I'm thinking some nods towards the stuff you'd get in "name-level" D&D characters. By that I mean item creation, spell research, strongholds, and mass combat.

I love the idea for new talents, and I think they're critical to keep the feel of OD&D. I mean, if your wizard can't fly and shoot fireballs, what the fuck kind of Hogwarts hogwash is that? I also think you're right about it possibly diluting things to have too many. That's part of why I like the idea of 3 levels/tier.

We can further lessen the number of "new" talents by taking Rel's advice (and some others) by making metatalents. Existing talents get improved rather than new powers being stacked on.

As far as changing how the game is played--I like this idea, but I don't think we necessarily need to create new rules. I think the rules system is robust enough that we can just start to give more options. Two obvious ways to tweak the rules: Let people take multiple actions, and let people force what actions their enemies take.

Anyhow, here are some thoughts for the human classes. The names need work.

Fighter:
OVERKILL
usable once-per-arena
If you kill an enemy with an attack, the force of your blow continues on. Any extra damage (ie, damage above and beyond what you needed to kill the first enemy) can be applied to another enemy in this arena.

VERA
constant, prereq WEAPON OF CHOICE
Not only does your weapon of choice get all face-dice, now it also deals another point of damage on every hit! Also, you must give your weapon a name.

AGGRO
focused attack, usable after rested
Make a Cunning or Charm check. All intelligent enemies in your arena who can see or hear you are enraged by your behavior, and must attempt to hurt you on their next turn.

HAMSTRING
usable once-per-arena
If you successfully damage your enemy with an attack, you may choose to make it a hamstring. That enemy cannot take a Move action until healed.

Wizard:
FLIGHT OF THE CONDOR
focused spell, usable once after rested
You can fly. Lasts until the end of the scene, or after 10 minutes (whichever comes first)

BOOM
focused spell, usable once after rested
You hurl a fireball from your fingertips, dealing 2HP to everyone in a single arena (the one you're in, or one adjacent to you). This damage can be reduced by a Daring check vs. your Cunning.

SPIRIT OF THE TURTLE
constant ability
Your AC goes up to 12, as though you were wearing Heavy Armor.

ILLUSION
focused spell, usable once per arena
You can make an illusion of something smaller than an elephant. Make a Cunning check, opposed by your opponents' Awareness. Really obvious illusions grant a +2 to their check, and actually being touched by an illusion breaks the effect. If they fail, they think it's real.

Cleric:
BOSS
focused spell, usable once per arena
After your opponent has declared their action next turn, you may select an additional action for them to take. You make all decisions regarding how the action is executed.

BURST OF LIFE
focused spell, usable only once after rested, prereq PRAYERS OF THE HURT or TURN UNDEAD
You emanate a wave of healing energy to your allies. All allies in the same arena as you are healed 2HP. Any undead in the same arena as you are hurt for 2HP. If you have allies who are also undead, you probably shouldn't be a cleric.

SMITE
attack, usable once per arena
Your weapon glows with the power of your god as you destroy your enemies. After making a successful attack, you may choose to deal an extra 2HP of damage.

GHOST WHISPERER
focused spell, usable only once after rested
You can communicate with the dead, assuming they speak your language. Lasts until the end of the scene, or after 10 minutes (whichever comes first)

Thief:
SYKE!
non-action, usable once after rested
You may change your action at any point during this round, so long as the initiative for the new action hasn't passed.

YOINK!
attack, usable once per arena, prereq BUSY HANDS
You may now use BUSY HANDS on an enemy immediately after damaging them with an attack. Alternately, you can use BUSY HANDS as a focused action to take something they're actively holding.

IT'S A TRAP!
extended action, usable outside of combat
You can create simple traps from household materials. You must declare what sets off the trap (ie, the first person to walk across here), and what Special Effect it has (ie, burn, prone, etc.) You may choose to have the trap deal a single point of damage instead of applying an Effect.

The target creature will need to make a Daring check to avoid the trap vs. your Cunning attribute test. Each trap only affects one creature, but you can have as many traps as you are Cunning set at a given time.

POISON
focused action, usable once after rested
You are skilled at creating and using poisons that damage an opponent's attributes. When you take this talent, select one attribute you want your poison to target. You can change your poison by spending a full day with the proper supplies.

Poison must be freshly applied--so this talent must be used during combat or immediately before combat starts. The next attack you make with your poisoned weapon deals attribute damage equal to your Cunning. Attributes cannot be reduced below 1 with POISON.

Awesome, will check it out!

I didn't go through and read all the forum stuff when I got started (there is a lot here!) Having gone back and found some of these much older threads, I am going to adapt some of what is here into my own game sensibility and offer it in the Fictive material. I have a post on that here.

http://fictivefantasies.wordpress.com/2011/11/03/osh-improved-talents/

Here's a bunch of "advanced" talents for my OSH campaign. I was going for some of the original flair in the Redbox and OSH talents, giving them fun non-combat uses whenever I could think of any. No playtesting has been done with them yet, so they are bound to see revision later on.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1I3RZwXbPwJko1dEx_DathJrbQPHVJzp-K0AZFdMHsXo/edit

Please feel free to copy, borrow, or mutate at will.

isquish: interesting idea, I look forward to seeing it fleshed out a little.

I'm running an OSH campaign right now -- the players are 2nd level now, so we'll see how things go as we approach 5th level. I'll be very interested to see people's Heroic Tier ideas!

I have taken a long look at all the heroic tier ideas posted on this forum, and I while I have my own thoughts on the positives/negatives of each, i would really appreciate some more experienced feedback.

The class-changing option allows for endless character growth and progression, but class changing shouldn't be the primary method of character advancement (and I don't think fictive is intending it to be) . Support for this kind of advancement should be an option, though.

The meta-talents are great in that they allow a character to focus on the abilities they feel defined them. I also like how they can make two characters with similar talents play very differently. The current version needs a larger variety of effects to be the primary means of character progression, however.

There have been a ton of sweet class-specific, "heroic tier" talents posted. I am not sure this would be maintainable for the large number of classes available in the expansion. Plus, talent bloat becomes even more of an issue. I like this, but in very limited amounts to keep bloat down and ensure each class can get high quality, unique talents.

Another issue that I haven't heard discussed much is the allocation of attribute bonuses each level. There do esn't seem to be much inherent motivation for characters to branch out beyond their favorite stat (with a touch of Brawn for loot carrying purposes). As such, character attributes are likely to be quite lopsided by level 10. While the option to be super specialized isn't a bad thing, there needs to be motivation for characters to spread their attribute bonuses out. Fictive included a bit of this in his expansion by having alternative options for attribute bonuses. Need more of this kind of stuff.

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So I am leaning towards a system based around a variety of meta-talents. In addition, either an open pool of "heroic tier" talents with attribute bonus pre-requisites, or a limited selection of additional "heroic tier" talents added to each class. I am still mulling over how to encourage people to spread out their attribute bonuses (or spend them on other things) without being too heavy handed or breaking things.

I am very curious if those more experienced with OSH have seen or suspect the same issues I do.

Oh, its definitely! I also get what you mean about multiclassing not necessarily taking someone away from a given character concept.

One thing you mentioned reminded me of a question I had about your expansion material. You seem to be treating the level up attribute increases as modifying the attribute score/rating instead of the attribute bonus. The original rules, however, appear to completely ditch the attribute roll in favor of only tracking the attribute bonus. Was this a conscious change you made?

To clarify what I mean, an example:
Jimmy the Fighter, who rolled an 18 for his Brawn, has a +4 bonus to Brawn. He's just made level 2, huzzah!

In the original rules, the 2d10 roll that gave Jimmy that +4 is no longer important. His level up attribute increase directly raises that +4 to a +5. Simple, straightforward.

In your expansion material, Jimmy would need to track the original roll (i.e. the attribute rating), as that is the number that level up attribute increases modify. He'd go from an 18 to a 19 Brawn rating, and his Brawn bonus would remain +4 until he put an additional point into it. This is more like how modern D&D does it.

This actually threw me off about your stuff, because some of your talents reference "attribute rating" which is a new concept in OSH as far as I can tell. Previously that stuff was not relevant past character generation.

(Please correct me if I've misinterpreted either your rules or the original rules!)

Design Goals:
♦ Keep attack and damage bonuses from spiraling out of control. One of the strengths of OSH is that it avoids the "bigger numbers = more badass" syndrome of modern D&D.
♦ Make the characters feel more powerful. Since upping the raw numbers is out (monster stats would just increase to compensate, anyway), I went with adding several avenues of gaining area of effect abilities. This means that as the heros get higher in level, they gain the ability to take down increasing numbers of minions / guards, but the bigger monsters still present a challenge.
♦ Keep the feel of the current system. A lot of this will depend on how the new talents are presented. If these new talents are explained in a flavorful way that promotes the ability of players to improvise with them, I think that will go a long way in capturing the feel of OSH.

New rules/terms:
♦ Attack Talent: any talent which directly harms, or modifies a basic attack/shoot action. (i.e. Backstab is an attack talent because it modifies the basic attack action. Sleep is an attack talent because it directly causes a negative effect upon the target.)
♦ Talent Upgrades: when taking a talent upgrade, apply its affects to a talent you already possess. The same talent upgrade may not be applied to a base talent more than once.
♦ Area of Effects (AoEs): AoE's are usually stopped by a solid barrier. Unless stated otherwise, AoE's affect all creatures within the area of effect.
>> Arena: all creatures within the targeted arena are affected.
>> Adjacent: any creature in base-to-base contact with the attacker is affected.
>> Line: trace a line from any portion of the attackers base, in the direction of the attacker's choosing. Any creature's base that this line passes through is affected (a ruler or string is handy here)
>> Cone: A cone effect shoots away from the attacker in a quarter-circle, in any direction of the attacker's choosing. The easiest way to determine the area of effect is to draw two lines from a single point on the attacker's base at a 90 degree angle. Any creature within this arc is affected, even if only a portion of their base lies within. The attacker may choose to make the cone smaller than 90 degrees if they wish, but usually not any wider than that.
>> Multi-attacks: Unless otherwise specified, any attack that targets multiple creatures compares a single attack roll against each target's defense.


Needed OSH Errata:
Specify how in-arena movement works (i.e. you move on the turn that your action takes place, immediately before taking that action). Mostly so that AoEs actually work in a somewhat predictable manner.


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With that said, heres the beginings of the "Open Pool" of talents that will become available to the heroes as they enter the Heroic Tier of play. Most have stat requirements, mainly to promote spreading attribute bonuses around as well as differentiate character playstyles.


BRAWN +5 or higher
♦ Cleave Through, focus/constant, when you hit and enemy in the face, deal 1 wound to all adjacent enemies
♦ Mighty, talent upgrade, talent deals +1 wound damage

CUNNING +5 or higher
♦ Slashing Wake, focus/constant, deal 1 wound damage to all enemies in a line, (max targets = CUNNING bonus). End up adjacent to last target.
♦ Vicious, talent upgrade, extra damage (hit in the face, backstab, etc) is applied to all (applicable) targets within this talent's area of effect (Normally, this damage is only applied to a single target within the area of effect).
♦ Critical Strikes, constant, you now "Hit in the Face" on 9s and 10s.

DARING +5 or higher
♦ Desperate Gambit*, rested (special), if you are reduced to 2 or less hp, you gain +2 attack / +2 damage until end of encounter. Must heal to full hp before using again.
♦ Take the Blow*, arena, if an ally is going to be hit within your arena, you may opt to take the damage instead. Move yourself adjacent to that ally (if not already), and get a free basic attack against the attacker (even if the damage knocks you unconscious).
♦ Retaliation talent upgrade if an ally is rendered unconscious use this power immediately against one of the attackers responsible (must be in your current arena)
♦ Final Strike, talent upgrade, when K.O.'d, may use this talent (or a basic attack modified by this talent) against all adjacent enemies before falling unconscious.

CHARM +5 or higher
♦ Morale Boost, rested, all allies within the arena may roll an additional (non-face) d10 with their attacks until end of encounter.
♦ Cutting Insult, constant, your aggrevating insults causes your foes to suffer -2 to their next attack whenever they miss you.
♦ Hey, Check This Out!, talent upgrade, a talent which normally targets a single creature may instead affect all adjacent creatures. Non-damaging/non-healing effects only.
♦ Inspirational, talent upgrade, allies receive +1 to damage vs target on successful hit
♦ Combat Panche talent upgrade +2 on any attribute rolls this talent requires

COMMITMENT +5 or higher
♦ Shield Expertise, rested, if wielding a shield, negate a wound point w/ no shield damage. Also may repair a broken shield given an hour and appropriate tools.
♦ Resolute, constant, gain +2 to defend against Push/Throw/Impede attempts. If the attacker fails, deal 1 wound to them for their trouble.
♦ Concentration, talent upgrade, focus attack talent is uninterruptable
♦ Spell Intensity, talent upgrade, +1 wound damage, spells-only
♦ Spell Burst, spend 1 Awesome point to have this talent affect all adjacent creatures instead of it's normal targeting
♦ Spell Expansion, talent upgrade, spend 3 Awesome points to have this talent affect all creatures within this arena or an adjacent one, instead of it's normal targeting. Any non-damaging effects are reduced to a single round in duration.

AWARENESS +5 or higher
♦ Barrage focus, constant attack targets up to AWA bonus -1 to attack roll per target full damage to all hit
♦ Richochet, arena, attack two targets within the same arena, damage is split between them (minimum 1 damage each)
♦ First Strike, constant, free attack before combat starts, never suprised, +2 on init rolls
♦ Exploit Weakness, talent upgrade, a successful hit with this talent lowers the target's armor value by 2 for 1 round

No attribute requirements (just need to be at whatever level we decide Heroic tier starts)
♦ Practiced, talent upgrade, this talent may be used an additional time before needing to be refreshed
♦ Accurate, talent upgrade, this talent gains a +1 to hit


(*Note: borrowed these from links in this thread. I'll look up the specific author later! A pre-emptive thanks goes out to you!)

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Is it a good start or is it going the wrong direction? Let me know what you think!

I'm fixing up my "Fictive's Talents and Templates" to clarify the Attribute situation, and to be a lot more clear during the character generation process. (Most people who come to this have some experience with a 3d6 attribute generation, I assume, and are prone to the same mistake I made.)

I think one of the things people in my group (and I assume others) enjoy about Old School Hack is that you don't need miniatures and tactical movement is much larger scale (by arena instead of by 5 foot grid.) If you want to use a cone, and are concerned about when people can move out of its way, I'd suggest that the cone isn't done until the power activates (usually in part 7 I'd assume) and that the saving throw represents getting out of the way.

isquish, I like your design principles and I have also kept those goals before me as I work on this project. I think the idea of having talents available to those with 5+ in an attribute is an interesting and useful idea.

I plan to have version 2 out in the next few weeks, and after that I plan to leave it alone for a while. I am pleased with the progress and the content that is going into this game supplement.

I created a way for everyone to be able to take advantage of good success and awesome points to hit multiple minions, here.

http://fictivefantasies.wordpress.com/2011/09/30/osh-fighting-crowd-rules/

Fighting a Mass of Minions

If you roll more to hit than the minion armor class, each point higher is an additional minion that can be downed if you spend an Awesome Point each.

That's not instead of what you're talking about, but it is a move in that direction.

One idea I have for Heroic Tier gameplay is to provide a choice of one out of three class sheets to append to their character, acting in many ways like a prestige class from D&D. The Fighter can choose from Knight, Warlord, & Beserker; while the Mage chooses from Necromancer, Elementalist, & Enchanter. Or something to that effect. Possibly have one or two of them overlap and also be chosen by another class (e.g. Necromancer is an option for Mage or Cleric), in the event you want to reduce your workload.

Each of the class sheets would have talents of greater narrative influence, while also providing direction for roleplaying and aesthetic ('Necromancer' obviously saying more than 'Mage')